Dilemma

[abcdefh]

hello, I've been working in high-tech for a good 6 years now, I have a decent job and a house. I always wanted to go back to do an MFE, but could not due to various personal and family reasons. But now I'm ready, and frankly, can't wait much longer, otherwise, I'll be too old.

I'm just curious if you believe if it's a wise decision for me to do an MFE though:

First, my background:
1, bachelor and master in computer science in a national university rank around 50, overall gpa > 3.8, major gpa > 3.9, math 4.0., top of the class, number of awards and high-honor society, etc.

2, math -- let's me summarize as : have never gotten anything besides perfect on math courses and exams from elementary school to college. ( e.g. all A in every math course, perfect in those AP, SAT, GRE math sections, etc.)
I'm pretty confident my math is good, besides the above, actively involved in those high school math olympiad competitions, took my team to win 2nd place in state championship, etc.
However, I'm not those math genius like my friends who were in IMO and got gold medals, etc.

3, finance -- worked in a finance firm before, it wasn't a bank. I like the fast-pace, exciting work environment. Have not taken any finance courses in school, so I self-studied CFA level I less than 2 months while working full-time and passed the exam. I felt the exam was just covering a lot of materials, but I don't find it as scary as some other people suggested.

Reason to switch,
The primary reason is that I don't get to use much of math in programming jobs in high-tech. I have done enough research to know finance is the best fit for me in terms of math + programming + finance. So money is not the primary reasons why I want to switch to finance.

So my questions to you -- especially those whom has a lot of experience in this field:
1, Should I switch or just have my decent job with a good house, etc?

2, When I apply to MFE programs, I cannot include my above background in math or high school stuff for that matter because I cannot submit anything about high school years, even if I were in IMO, and second, the admissions will see that as hard-sell.

So how should I present my math background in MFE application?


In case you wonder, I did not go to the top school in my undergraduate years was because I was young and naive - I did not know how to apply for schools, and second, I had pretty much full-scholarship for that school and my family was very poor.

 

[roni]

You can show you math skills by providing the transcripts from your schools.
I'm not in the program yet, but I think your application is very attractive.
I'm also assuming you took lots of advanced math courses during grad and undergrad years...

good luck

 

[Connor]

You will have to submit your university transcripts so that will show your math ability. And you will be required to take the GRE test and optionally you could take the GRE math subject test.

 

[abcdefh]

yeah, I will be required to submit the transcript as part of the application, no doubt. But that only shows all A in math courses which is just linear algebra, multi-calculus, differential equations, discrete math, abstract algebra. Honestly, I slept through all most of those courses since I already took most of that in high school, but weren't allowed to get college credit.

I already took the GRE, verbal > 500, math is again 800.

I mean, I can send my transcript to show the GPA and GRE. But that's the only thing the admissions can see, and frankly a lot of people probably have that. I wanted to make myself standout in terms of those Olympiads and competitions, but I guess I won't be allow to do that. So is there another way to present that?

Also, if you are in my situation, would you go for the MFE?

Many thanks!

 

[Iuliia Palamar]

You can include it into your statement of purpose. At least that's what I did about my high-school Olympiads, and it worked out well.

 

[Connor]

Also, if you are in my situation, would you go for the MFE?

If I was as smart as you make yourself sound, I think I would go for a PhD. As more people are getting MFEs (and I'm sure this number will only go up) it is increasingly hard to stand out. The shortness of a MFE program helps people get that masters and move back out into the job market but it also doesn't give you time to stand out as an individual or to gain a deeper understanding.

But as many people have pointed out in the past, pursing a PhD for a specific quant job or the money is a bad idea.

And regarding your high school background, I'm sure there is someplace on the application form, resume, or statement of purpose you can fit that in as a past achievement. But depending on how long ago that was, it may not be very relevant.

 

[alain]

The primary reason is that I don't get to use much of math in programming jobs in high-tech. I have done enough research to know finance is the best fit for me in terms of math + programming + finance.

this sounds really nice but it's very clear that you are looking for the money.

So, now that we made clear, you might not get to do programming, math and finance. It all depends on a lot of variables. Have you tried to get a job without the MFE? It sounds you think you are very intelligent/smart. Why don't you try to land a job with your skills? It might work out and you will save yourself the trouble of going through school again.

 

[abcdefh]

>> If I was as smart as you make yourself sound, I think I would go for a PhD. As more people are getting MFEs

Trust me, I'm not as smart as some of my friends, everything is relative. There is always someone else who is more intelligent.

As for phD, yeah, I would love to, after all these years, I learned I prefer in a academic environment than work environment. But the thing is that I'm too old for that, at least for getting into the top schools.

>> this sounds really nice but it's very clear that you are looking for the money.

unfortunately, you are wrong, and you got to show logic in your reasoning. I'm not saying I don't like money, but that's not my primary motivating factor for finance as I said in my statement.

If you want, I can bet anything with you, even my life. Send me an email to discuss further.

As regarding jobs without MFE, yes, that's probably a longer route (indirect) -- takes more time than a MFE, again, it's the age thing, want to save on the time.

 

[alain]

Ok, I might be wrong.

If you don't mind to answer, how old are you? I still think the job might be the fastest route. However, you shouldn't have any problem applying to an MFE program.

 

[Connor]

But the thing is that I'm too old for that, at least for getting into the top schools.

http://www.urch.com/forums/phd-busi...represented-groups-diversity-suggestions.html

 

[abcdefh]

Thanks all you guys for the replies.

Connor -- I understand what you mean. Nothing is impossible, but I know the probability of getting into top schools is rather low, more likely getting into not so top school. I would just do Stat. or Applied math.

alain -- I'm 29 already.

A number of my friends are either phD, postdoc or professor. So I know that sort of life, etc. pretty well, I'm those nerdy type, similar to them. They also don't suggest me to do phD since it's long, painful, blah, blah, ... But I definitely like the intellectual challenge and satisfaction (in terms of math).

The other set of my friends are more the business type, that's why they do MBA at HBS, wharton, much better pay than quant. But I'm not the MBA type of person, I like quantitative work, so pay doesn't factor in my calculation.

So that's why I post on this forum since I don't have any friends in MFE. My quant friends working in the industry already have engineering degree from top school, so they don't need or care for a MFE degree. Under their suggestions, I could try to get into a developer role in wall street first, and then go from there. But it ain't easy in this market, things are still slow, I heard.

 

[joel_b]

Have you tried applying to get a feel for the market? This Thread talks about how goldman is scrambling to get developers to help them spin-off their prop trading. Many other firms are going to be in the same boat. Maybe you just need to find a recruiter or recruiter firm to place you. At that point maybe you can make a decision if another degree is necessary.

Plus, if you're as into math as you say and academic pursuits, you could get the Certificate in Quantitative Finance via self-study instead while you keep your current job, if you really think you need more accredation to make the switch. You already did CFA via self-study, so it should be something you could take on. Not endorsing the CQF mind you, I don't have an opinion on it either way.

Just another option, that offers less disruption to your current state.

 

[roni]

Thanks all you guys for the replies.

Connor -- I understand what you mean. Nothing is impossible, but I know the probability of getting into top schools is rather low, more likely getting into not so top school. I would just do Stat. or Applied math.

alain -- I'm 29 already.

A number of my friends are either phD, postdoc or professor. So I know that sort of life, etc. pretty well, I'm those nerdy type, similar to them. They also don't suggest me to do phD since it's long, painful, blah, blah, ... But I definitely like the intellectual challenge and satisfaction (in terms of math).

The other set of my friends are more the business type, that's why they do MBA at HBS, wharton, much better pay than quant. But I'm not the MBA type of person, I like quantitative work, so pay doesn't factor in my calculation.

So that's why I post on this forum since I don't have any friends in MFE. My quant friends working in the industry already have engineering degree from top school, so they don't need or care for a MFE degree. Under their suggestions, I could try to get into a developer role in wall street first, and then go from there. But it ain't easy in this market, things are still slow, I heard.

I don't think it was mentioned here, but with a PhD in math, physics or something related, you are the king in the quantitative finance field. These people do the heavy duty math/programming...

 

[alain]

I was 33 when I did my MFE. So age is not a big deal.

 

[roni]

If I was as smart as you make yourself sound, I think I would go for a PhD. As more people are getting MFEs (and I'm sure this number will only go up) it is increasingly hard to stand out. The shortness of a MFE program helps people get that masters and move back out into the job market but it also doesn't give you time to stand out as an individual or to gain a deeper understanding.

But as many people have pointed out in the past, pursing a PhD for a specific quant job or the money is a bad idea.

And regarding your high school background, I'm sure there is someplace on the application form, resume, or statement of purpose you can fit that in as a past achievement. But depending on how long ago that was, it may not be very relevant.

Hey Connor,

Let me ask you something. I went to a science high school and would like to mention this and what I did there on my SoP, it was in 2002-2004... Is it long enough that I shouldn't mention it ?

The reason I want to mention it is because I'm a finance major (of course I've taken many math courses+ a couple of programming courses in College).

Thanks.

 

[Connor]

@roni: Maybe someone else here is of a different opinion but in my opinion how well you did in high school that is 6+ years ago is irrelevant now. I would be more interested in your current performance.

The only way I could see a useful spin of going to a science high school was some specific projects/activities that first really interested you in math and science and these experiences have since lead to....

But overall I'd say if you are almost finished or finished with your undergrad then what you did in high school doesn't matter.

 

[abcdefh]

As many have pointed out, location for MFE program is also important, e.g. Columbia, NYU graduates will tend to work in NY, UChicago ... chicago, etc.

How about Asia? which program in your opinion will place the best in Asia? Those CA schools ? - berkeley and ucla - closet to Asia.

 

[Connor]

I haven't heard of any Asian programs, so I'm interested in what others say about the topic. But this prompted me to take a quick look, so I looked at a few of the top Asian business schools and didn't really find anything. The closest was the MSc in Financial Analysis/Investment Management at HKUST Business School (Hong Kong); it is more a masters in finance but there are a few basic quant-ish courses.

 

[abcdefh]

HK and singapore has those financial engineering program. But that was not what I meant.

I meant usually location is an important factor for school selection, so for example, if one intends to work in NY, then one would choose a program in or closed to NY rather than California. However, for those who want to work in Asia, then the question is which program would be the best?
(Of course, ignore the obvious MIT/Stanford etc. -- big name, but the more ambiguous, alphab. order --Berkeley/CMU/Columbia/Cornell/NYU/UCLA/UMich, because these brand name in US probably may not carry the same EXACT weight in another country.)

 

[euroazn]

My cousin was an applied math major in Harvard. He went to work for a Barclay's in Singapore.

Now, Barclays is a British firm. So EAST coast is closer. For this reason, I think the program itself, not location, is important for overseas work (I am by no means advocating Harvard though :P)