Finance advice (career and education)

[Lloyd Vhaul DeMort]

I need some career advice from you guys.

I have a degree in marketing and finance, and I am doing my second undergraduate at the University of Toronto in computer science, it will take me 2-3 years to finish it. Then I will possibly do a masters in mathematical and computational finance at Oxford, at least that is the aim, which takes about 10 months.

My idea is this: I would love to start my own Fin-Tech company and I really want to! That is the reason why I am going to university to do all of this. If in case starting my own business does not go as planned, I can still work as a Quant. I am trying to put myself in best position educationally and financially.

My dilemma is that I am doubting if I should do a second undergrad in computer science or just do Masters in Finance and CFA/CPA*. Here, the problem is that it will take me approximately 1-2 year to do a masters, depending on where I go, and I might actually end up in a similar position (yearly income wise) as I would with a degree in Computer Science. CFA/CPA are on the list as well. It will take 3 years to do CFA and possibly another 3 to do CPA, so I will realistically only do one. So all in all I will be pretty employable, should be able to make somewhere close 120k + in Toronto area.

So masters and CFA will take same amount of time, roughly, as a degree in Computer Science and then a masters in Mathematical and Computational Finance. But not having a degree in computer science will cut my chances of moving to the U.S. where I would like to start my business. Plus a computer science undergrad pays highly too. And, I could fiddle around with things more freely by having the technical know-how.

One thing I will say is that I am highly passionate about Finance. I have been told many times, when I speak with people about the stock market, economy, they can see my passion for the subject. So that kind of makes me question if I am setting myself behind in someway shape or form by doing an undergrad in computer science when I can just do all the things in Finance and get as much edge as possible. Stay in Canada, try to start a finance oriented business here (tough regulations and many are unnecessary in my opinion) or work for a bank - I already do, so I can move up. U.S. is moving closer to Canada in-terms of financial regulations but hasn't gotten to where Canada is, financial ingenuity and entrepreneurship is not hindered by too many regulations. Business friendly-environment. I haven't seen too much VC investment in Canada either. There have been some, but not a lot.

Any thoughts? Any counter opinion? Suggestions?

Thank you for reading and replying.

Lloyd Vhaul DeMort

*Honestly, I will probably end up doing a masters in Finance, and then applying for a PhD in Finance. Not even bother with CFA or CPA because a PhD, I think, is worth more than a CFA. But, I could be wrong. Just looking for a fastest way to accomplish my dreams. That is all.

 

[qdogg]

OK, so just a quick recap-- you're interested in marketing, you're interested in finance, you're interested in CompSci, you want to build your own FinTech firm, you want to be qualified as a quant, you want an MS in finance, possibly a PhD, a CFA charter, fancy accounting certifications, you want to spend the next 2-3 years in Canada, possibly go to Oxford, and then somehow end up in the US...

Ambition and diverse interests are usually a good thing, but this was so all-over-the-place that I honestly have no idea what to tell you here...

 

[Lloyd Vhaul DeMort]

OK, so just a quick recap-- you're interested in marketing, you're interested in finance, you're interested in CompSci, you want to build your own FinTech firm, you want to be qualified as a quant, you want an MS in finance, possibly a PhD, a CFA charter, fancy accounting certifications, you want to spend the next 2-3 years in Canada, possibly go to Oxford, and then somehow end up in the US...

Ambition and diverse interests are usually a good thing, but this was so all-over-the-place that I honestly have no idea what to tell you here...

Thank you for replying...really appreciate it. But, I don't remember where I said that I am interested in Marketing? If you are deducing that because of my degree, then the university I went to, required students to do either a specialist or a double major. And, because I had one semi-quantitative program (finance) I was not allowed to pick accounting or economics due to course overlap. So I picked marketing. It is still one degree not two. Still took 4 years, and has nothing to do with my interest in marketing.

As far as being all-over the place is concerned, I think it is still pretty clear that everything I am doing is trying to do is improve my standing in Finance. But perhaps I can clarify it for you or anyone else will read this post.

1. Computer Science -> Masters in Math and Computational Finance -> Business or Quant.
2. Masters in Finance -> Possibly a PhD/ or some other designation -> Non-Fin-Tech business or Financial Analyst or some other Finance job that is a lot less technical than being a Quant.

If you can honestly tell me that big banks or hedge funds in the U.S. will hire a person as a hardcore-quant if all that person had was an undergrad in finance, followed by masters in finance and their programming experience was self-taught, I would love to speak with you more about it and how to do it! Because I spoke with 3 people I know and they have informed me that it is very difficult to break-in without a degree in strictly quantitative discipline.

But then again there is confusion that is why I am here. Hoping someone who has already gone through it will share their experience. I hope this clarifies for you that there are only two paths in-front of me. Both are in finance, I am confused as to which route to take.

 

[qdogg]

Stay in Canada, try to start a finance oriented business here (tough regulations and many are unnecessary in my opinion) or work for a bank - I already do, so I can move up.

What kind of work are you doing at the bank?

 

[Lloyd Vhaul DeMort]

What kind of work are you doing at the bank?

I am currently working as a Financial Services Representative. Moving up to Wealth Management and Financial Investment (Things were set in motion by my manager so that is set). It is because I can explain in detail and sell pretty much any financial product. I have been working here for less than a year. It is a nice environment but I can do more. I just know it! Do you work at a bank too?

 

[DavidHilbert]

Why exactly do you need 10 degrees and certifications to start a FinTech company?
Why do you want to go to Oxford? Because it's Oxford?
How does CPA help you to start a fintech company or work as a quant?
Do a PhD in what? Where? (I suppose Harvard would look nice on resume, right...)
If you are so passionate about finance, why not just start your FinTech company right away?
Also, why FinTech company? Because it is a nice buzzword these days?
By the way: when it comes to knowledge you gain, CFA is basically equivalent to Master in Finance.

I think you first need to put your priorities and life goals in order and determine what you really want to do and not want to do things because they sound cool.

 

[Lloyd Vhaul DeMort]

Why exactly do you need 10 degrees and certifications to start a FinTech company?
Why do you want to go to Oxford? Because it's Oxford?
How does CPA help you to start a fintech company or work as a quant?
Do a PhD in what? Where? (I suppose Harvard would look nice on resume, right...)
If you are so passionate about finance, why not just start your FinTech company right away?
Also, why FinTech company? Because it is a nice buzzword these days?
By the way: when it comes to knowledge you gain, CFA is basically equivalent to Master in Finance.

I think you first need to put your priorities and life goals in order and determine what you really want to do.

1. I do not need 10 degrees and certifications. However, I will need a degree in computer science to help me start a Fin-Tech company and assist me with seed funding. Just so I have the technical know-how.

2. Why I want to go to Oxford? Well for the same reason Quantnet decides to rate schools based on their Mathematical Finance program. Same reason people go to Harvard, or Stanford, or any other big name school. Believe you me I am not big on names. And even if I went I would not name drop unless asked. I am just being member of a society that values you based on where you went. So if collectively we can stop rating things...I am not willing to risk my future on an off chance that going to local school will provide me with the same connections and rigor. Other than that they actually have a really good program. If you look it up, they tell you the material they will cover, it is everything anyone needs to know to be a Quant or be in Finance. Besides, It is just an aim to keep me motivated I could go anywhere.

3. So CPA does not help and that is why to the earlier poster I said that if I decide not to do a degree in Computer Science. I still would like to make good amount of money doing what I love in the Finance industry. Also, be a good provider to my family and contribute to the society. But I have also said that realistically it will be either CFA or CPA or neither.

Also, on this route I will have a hard-time starting a Fin-Tech company because even-though I will have financial knowledge, I will lack the technical bit. I will have to rely on other people or person to assist me in starting it. And, it depends at that point who you click with and what type of a background that person has. And, no one works for free. So, dropping the Computer Science will basically mean doing something a long the lines of Investment Research Company, Asset Management, and other similar things you get the gist - Highly competitive by nature and heavily regulated in Canada.

Also, I spoke with someone with a lot of experience and he tried to start his own Investment Holdings company. He was told by his lawyer that his liability in Canada is very high. Also he needed to be licensed by IIROC, which is very hard to get. And he was licensed. But he could not even start his own mutual fund without being controlled by a bank, essentially being their employee and just work - easily replaceable. And, we are speaking of someone with years of experience in the industry. You see I am trying break into the industry by starting something of my own (but not on my own).

4. A PhD in finance. From where? Well that depends. It is a huge commitment and it depends if I am actually willing to make it or if I am happy with masters in Finance and working my way up. PhD would look good on a resume. Especially from Harvard - no doubt in that. I think PhD from University of Toronto is good too. Huge commitment though 4 years if you have a masters and Harvard is still 7 years apparently. So I am driven...not stupid. And...it is just an idea..

5. That is a very good question. And for this one I don't actually know how best to answer. But to be honest with you, I figure that without computer science knowledge I wont be able to develop credibility with investors for seed funding or build an MVP. So if I have an idea, I will actually need someone to to develop the entire prototype, whereas having an education in computer science I can do half of the work and get the help for the rest. Then I will not be the idea person because ideas are dime-a-dozen. At least that is what I have in mind. Does that make sense?

6. No...not because its a buzz word. I actually had an idea before then discovered that there is a field called Fin-Tech so I started to use it.

Lastly, I just want to thank you so much! Answering these questions has sort of made me reflect on my priorities. At the end of the day nothing is stopping me from starting my own business other than my feeling that my knowledge in technology is limited and that might actually become a problem with the VC's when raising funding or even raising seed capital. I will only be able to present the idea, possibly customer/market validation. But that is it, if they ask to see MVP...I might just get stumped and say well I need someone to build it. I lose my value. Is this a fair assumption? You tell me.

 

[DavidHilbert]

Lastly, I just want to thank you so much! Answering these questions has sort of made me reflect on my priorities. At the end of the day nothing is stopping me from starting my own business other than my feeling that my knowledge in technology is limited and that might actually become a problem with the VC's when raising funding or even raising seed capital. .

You're welcome. That was the intended message of my previous post - realize what you want to do and do it. If you want to start a FinTech company, then why do all the other things, that won't lead you to your ultimate goal.

1. You can get that knowledge on your own by working on whatever you want your FinTech company to be about. But that actually requires having some sound idea what should it be.

2. I still don't see how will Oxford, or in general any Quant Finance/MFE degree, help you start a FinTech company...?

3. If you love what you do, why try so hard to change?
No certification will ever help you start your own company, P-almost surely.

4. PhD in Finance - why exactly? What do you want to study in particular? Do you have a thesis topic you'd like to work on? As was explained 100 times on this forum, one simply does not do PhD because of a job or because he wants to start a company. One does a PhD because he is deeply interested in the field and wants to do research in it.

5. Can't really imagine an investor saying: "Hey, you have a product with great potential, but I won't fund you because you don't have CS degree." Getting an education in a field can help you get some ideas and meet some people. But once you are in the business with whatever company you want to have, no one gives a damn about your education. It is your business only that matters.

6. So... What was that idea? If you already have it, why not start working on it as soon as possible?

 

[Lloyd Vhaul DeMort]

You're welcome. That was the intended message of my previous post - realize what you want to do and do it. If you want to start a FinTech company, then why do all the other things, that won't lead you to your ultimate goal.

1. You can get that knowledge on your own by working on whatever you want your FinTech company to be about. But that actually requires having some sound idea what should it be.

2. I still don't see how will Oxford, or in general any Quant Finance/MFE degree, help you start a FinTech company...?

3. If you love what you do, why try so hard to change?
No certification will ever help you start your own company, P-almost surely.

4. PhD in Finance - why exactly? What do you want to study in particular? Do you have a thesis topic you'd like to work on? As was explained 100 times on this forum, one simply does not do PhD because of a job or because he wants to start a company. One does a PhD because he is deeply interested in the field and wants to do research in it.

5. Can't really imagine an investor saying: "Hey, you have a product with great potential, but I won't fund you because you don't have CS degree." Getting an education in a field can help you get some ideas and meet some people. But once you are in the business with whatever company you want to have, no one gives a damn about your education. It is your business only that matters.

6. So... What was that idea? If you already have it, why not start working on it as soon as possible?

1. I do have a solid idea. Or else I would have labelled it as a feature and dropped the plan, like I did with many other ideas. That is why I am going through all of this.

2. You are right about MFE though. The more I think about it, the more it turns out that it is one of those nice to have things or if my plan does not work, get a masters type of a thing. But not absolutely necessary for the business.

3. Well I am not trying to change anything, I love it enough to keep doing it. It just requires a lot of effort and passion. So sometimes its a question of whether I might actually end up being wrong about the whole thing...and that is just human nature seeking security. But if finance has taught me anything is bigger the risk bigger the reward should be.

4. For the PhD I actually had an idea. I wanted to research in either of the following topics: asset pricing, entrepreneurial finance, corporate finance/agency problem, and implications of algorithmic trading. University of Toronto is where professor John C Hull teaches, he wrote a very famous book on derivatives and teaches the MMF program there too. But I was never going to get it for a job, it was just because I deeply love the subject! But time commitment is a big thing, and it does not seem realistic to me. It has always been an idea.

5. It is not necessary investor saying "I wont invest because you don't have a CS degree", it is more like, "So how will you implement it? What technology will you make use you? Do you code? How much of the product do you have built? Is there a prototype? When will the product we ready? We would like to see the MVP before investing, come back." So basically I am guarding myself against being turned away for not possessing technical knowledge and I have actually asked these questions and I have heard other people say it. Because by the time I pay someone and get the MVP developed, I have already shared the idea. Even-though most business plans have a confidentiality page, and investors are bound by confidentiality, cat's out of the bag. If someone comes with a remotely close idea but with a completed MVP, those gaps might be filled. CS degree is in no way a guarantee to obtain funding but if I have to go through an Accelerator or an incubator, I will be able to hold my own.