Undergrad Advice

[Steelers]

I was wondering if you guys think I would have a strong enough background to enter a financial engineering program out of undergrad. I am currently a junior at West Virginia University where I have a 3.6 GPA, and I am a double major in Finance and Management Information Systems. I am really interested in finance and have started to get into programming as an MIS major. With work experience I currently work for Dell as a campus representative, and have an internship this summer with Deloitte. I also plan on taking the GRE this summer.

I have a couple options set up for after this summer. Which would be work hard this summer and get an offer from Deloitte, an already guranteed interview with Dell, or Grad School. I plan applying to some Grad schools and looking at all my options in the end.

I know its hard to tell without a GRE score but I was wondering with the credentials that I currently have if I would be alright in applying to some schools for a MFE.

Thanks for your help!

 

[bluechimp]

Want to tell us about your mathematics background?

 

[Steelers]

Math: College Algebra, Calc 1
Programming: C#, SQL

I've only taken 2 math courses since being at college which is probably my weak point. I am going into my senior year next year so I still have 3 more classes of programming.

 

[Eugene Krel]

more math, much more math.

http://www.baruch.cuny.edu/math/FAQ.html#10

 

[bluechimp]

Oui. I think the biggest reason people get rejected from financial engineering programs is the lack of mathematical background to follow the course.

 

[Steelers]

Oui. I think the biggest reason people get rejected from financial engineering programs is the lack of mathematical background to follow the course.

So it would probably be best for me to take a couple classes after I graduate undergrad before I apply.

 

[bigbadwolf]

So it would probably be best for me to take a couple classes after I graduate undergrad before I apply.

Hehe, more than a couple.

 

[bluechimp]

Probably more than just a few. At a minimum, you'd want Linear Algebra, Analysis, Probability (calculus-based, or even measure-theoretic), Statistics.

 

[Steelers]

Probably more than just a few. At a minimum, you'd want Linear Algebra, Analysis, Probability (calculus-based, or even measure-theoretic), Statistics.

I've taken a statistics course, which I forgot to include. I am assuming Linear Algebra and the course I took in College Algebra would be different. So if I took Calc. 2, Linear Algebra, and Probability would be I alright?

Also, If I get a high score on the quantitative part of the GRE do you think the previous courses I have taken would play less of a factor?

 

[bigbadwolf]

I've taken a statistics course, which I forgot to include. I am assuming Linear Algebra and the course I took in College Algebra would be different. So if I took Calc. 2, Linear Algebra, and Probability would be I alright?

No, you would not. And bluechimp omitted to mention ODEs and PDEs. I wouldn't trust any MFE program that admitted you with the credentials you want to get in on. And even if -- miracle of miracles -- a reputable program admitted you, you'd be struggling all the way. And if you managed to complete it, and a prospective employer asked what exactly you'd done as an undergrad, again you'd have a hard time explaining -- and such questions from the employer would be very pertinent: they may want to know how much numerical analysis, PDEs, and scientific computing you already had under your belt before you started the MFE.

Stop trying to cut corners. Either do it properly or not at all. If you want reassurance here on your proposed course of action, I doubt any responsible poster here will give it.

 

[Steelers]

Financial engineering is something that is new to me. I explained I am looking at grad school and MFE is something that looked interesting to me. I am sure this forum is filled with experts on it like you, and that is the reason I am here seeking advice.

I didn't say I was trying to cut any corners or trying to get into a program with a limited math background. I was just saying I have a strong interest in Finance and Programming, and wanted to see what I would need to add to my background if I wanted to take the path of MFE.

Obviously my math background isn't very strong. I am a B.S. in business administration majoring in Finance and MIS. I was thinking maybe a year of strengthening my background in math and work experience would be enough. In your opinion what would be the proper way for me to strengthen my math background in order to be prepared to get an MFE?

 

[Vu Nguyen]

The complete Calculus sequence (basically, you want to study up to Green's and Stoke's theorem, etc.)
Linear Algebra (is very different from College Algebra) (Applied or Theoretical, hmm) [this is exactly how people go 'wtf? you study 'Algebra' in a math graduate program?' haha]
Real Analysis (commonly known as Advanced Calculus, usually a 2-sem sequence) preferably with some basic Measure Theory (so that you can start)
Probability (with Measure Theory flavor)
ODE/PDE will probably help (can be first sem ODE, second sem PDE, or it can be 2 sem ODE then 2 sem PDE)

I guess Numerical Analysis (1 sem or 2 sem) will be helpful too. I wonder if you want to take the so-called Intro to Advanced Math, this is a transitional course that will help you understand the proving methods in higher math courses, which are totally different from the way you see math in Calculus or pre-Calculus.

 

[bigbadwolf]

Obviously my math background isn't very strong. I am a B.S. in business administration majoring in Finance and MIS. I was thinking maybe a year of strengthening my background in math and work experience would be enough. In your opinion what would be the proper way for me to strengthen my math background in order to be prepared to get an MFE?

To be realistic a bare minimum of a couple of years. It's more than just taking the appropriate courses -- you've got to take the courses with the right frame of mind, which means you have to try to get interested in the material for its own sake. Only in this way will it become part of you, part of your outlook. Otherwise, if you go at it with a mercenary outlook, you'll never assimilate it properly. You might memorise, say, the spectral theorem, but you won't have digested it. Secondly, and related to the "right frame of mind" referred to above, it's going to take you time to learn the mathematical way of looking at the world. Rapid calculation, an intuition for what will work or not work as a solution, ways of establishing or proving results, a feel for numbers, relationships, and equations -- this will take time. And these skills -- along with heavy-duty programming -- are what quants are hired for. For math and physics people, this is second (or rather first) nature. But you as a business major don't have it. If you did, you would be in math or physics.

Besides baby math like the 3-semester calc sequence, you definitely want linear algebra to at least the spectral theorem (though my philosophy is the more linear algebra the better). You want a course in real analysis. You want a course in calc-based probability (and further courses in stochastic processes and measure-theoretic probability, though not necessary, will probably come in handy). You want a course in ODEs and one in PDEs. A course in numerical analysis, couple with some scientific programming is essential. This I consider the bare minimum. But it's important not to rush: haste makes waste.

 

[atreides]

So dedicating 2-3 yrs to build eminence. ..I have noticed that a lot of the advice to quant-hopefuls on this forum is to take a couple of math classes here and there to build mathematical maturity for an MFE. Wouldn't it be better to just get a technical masters (math, IE, OR) to prepare....in case your interests change down the line, you have something to fall on.

To be realistic a bare minimum of a couple of years. It's more than just taking the appropriate courses -- you've got to take the courses with the right frame of mind, which means you have to try to get interested in the material for its own sake. Only in this way will it become part of you, part of your outlook. Otherwise, if you go at it with a mercenary outlook, you'll never assimilate it properly. You might memorise, say, the spectral theorem, but you won't have digested it. Secondly, and related to the "right frame of mind" referred to above, it's going to take you time to learn the mathematical way of looking at the world. Rapid calculation, an intuition for what will work or not work as a solution, ways of establishing or proving results, a feel for numbers, relationships, and equations -- this will take time. And these skills -- along with heavy-duty programming -- are what quants are hired for. For math and physics people, this is second (or rather first) nature. But you as a business major don't have it. If you did, you would be in math or physics.

Besides baby math like the 3-semester calc sequence, you definitely want linear algebra to at least the spectral theorem (though my philosophy is the more linear algebra the better). You want a course in real analysis. You want a course in calc-based probability (and further courses in stochastic processes and measure-theoretic probability, though not necessary, will probably come in handy). You want a course in ODEs and one in PDEs. A course in numerical analysis, couple with some scientific programming is essential. This I consider the bare minimum. But it's important not to rush: haste makes waste.

 

[bigbadwolf]

So dedicating 2-3 yrs to build eminence. ..I have noticed that a lot of the advice to quant-hopefuls on this forum is to take a couple of math classes here and there to build mathematical maturity for an MFE. Wouldn't it be better to just get a technical masters (math, IE, OR) to prepare....in case your interests change down the line, you have something to fall on.

I agree. Nothing wrong with some insurance -- something to fall back on if things go awry. And things are going awry these days. Though a natural question is what technical master's a business major could do -- OR, maybe? And how useful and relevant would it be? Hmmm, linear programming, some numerical analysis and computing, some optimisation -- this would all be useful. And meanwhile take some extra math classes, time allowing.

The larger context is that quant jobs are down sharply and I don't see them recovering for the foreseeable future (my opinion, I stress). So getting an MFE from Jerkwater State U, who'll admit anyone with a pulse, is false economy: there will be no job at the end of the "program." If -- big if -- someone wants to go for quant, go in properly prepared, and only accept a place at a ranking school. And then keep one's fingers crossed.

 

[fortunaire]

I agree. Nothing wrong with some insurance -- something to fall back on if things go awry. And things are going awry these days. Though a natural question is what technical master's a business major could do -- OR, maybe? And how useful and relevant would it be? Hmmm, linear programming, some numerical analysis and computing, some optimisation -- this would all be useful. And meanwhile take some extra math classes, time allowing.

The larger context is that quant jobs are down sharply and I don't see them recovering for the foreseeable future (my opinion, I stress). So getting an MFE from Jerkwater State U, who'll admit anyone with a pulse, is false economy: there will be no job at the end of the "program." If -- big if -- someone wants to go for quant, go in properly prepared, and only accept a place at a ranking school. And then keep one's fingers crossed.

all sounds find and dandy great info but truth is actuary/financial engineering jobs is the only market in the job real world that did not get hit so if your thinking of becoming a quant heres where your wanna be but the bread and butter is being in it for the long term and going solo most top traders and quants at big wig private equity firms are either getting fired true and are just quitting quant jobs are the only jobs moving but the demand side is to high they want you to do to much for to little they have money but not the equivalent pay for us quants.. so think about enhancing your programming skills amth skills mainly finite mathematics no matter what they say play close attention to the markets take some trading classes and save some cash and manage you a small portfolio until you ready to start your own hedge fund then you can eat at the the big kids table, good luck

 

[Steelers]

I agree. Nothing wrong with some insurance -- something to fall back on if things go awry. And things are going awry these days. Though a natural question is what technical master's a business major could do -- OR, maybe? And how useful and relevant would it be? Hmmm, linear programming, some numerical analysis and computing, some optimisation -- this would all be useful. And meanwhile take some extra math classes, time allowing.

The larger context is that quant jobs are down sharply and I don't see them recovering for the foreseeable future (my opinion, I stress). So getting an MFE from Jerkwater State U, who'll admit anyone with a pulse, is false economy: there will be no job at the end of the "program." If -- big if -- someone wants to go for quant, go in properly prepared, and only accept a place at a ranking school. And then keep one's fingers crossed.

Thanks for your help. This gave me a better perspective on what it would take. I think my best option is to see how my internship goes with Deloitte and then reassess things. Maybe I'll look into getting an MBA/MS-MIS dual degree.

 

[fortunaire]

I've taken a statistics course, which I forgot to include. I am assuming Linear Algebra and the course I took in College Algebra would be different. So if I took Calc. 2, Linear Algebra, and Probability would be I alright?

Also, If I get a high score on the quantitative part of the GRE do you think the previous courses I have taken would play less of a factor?

please excuse me for my interruption but i could not bear to hear you guys/girls speak such a way no longer....do you know most of the best and most successful quants are self taught 88% of us are .and enough with the baby math grooming... you need 2 and only 2 real math talents to be a better engineer... one is lamda cal culus and though i'd like to probabilty math it hurts me not too trust me it hurts but the other is logic are finite mathematics if you will even though the too clash in mainstream academia....they become a unison down the line when you strive on building data models ...especially when applying econmetric models directed in cross reference tax rate and international security trade minus your income models of choice.. so if you like swaos and futures currencies and exchange rates and especially hedging multibillion dollars trading in corporate bonds try that on for size

 

[bluechimp]

What? 88% of the quants are self-taught? What am I doing in school now?!? I should be back home then, reading some Shreve on my own!

On a more serious note: Fortunaire, do you mind telling us what do you think are the necessary education prerequisites to become a quant?

On an even more serious note: Fortunaire, do you mind typing your posts with proper punctuation and grammar? It's imperative for mankind's survival.

 

[bigbadwolf]

On an even more serious note: Fortunaire, do you mind typing your posts with proper punctuation and grammar? It's imperative for mankind's survival.

The style is avant-garde and sui generis, with a cool disdain for punctuation and grammar. If you pick up some of Thomas Pynchon's earlier novels (such as "Gravity's Rainbow") you will see some stylistic resemblance. Or going back further, Joyce's "Ulysses."