COMPARE Carnegie Mellon University MSCF vs Cornell University MFE

[Feng]

I know there are too many of this kind of posts, still I want to hear your opinions. This would be an important decision for me.

Surely the reputation of the CMU program is great, but the Ivy name of Cornell is still an attraction. If I am returning to Asia, I believe the Ivy name can help anyway (not necessarily in quantitative finance, but may be in other field. After 10 or 15 years, who can tell what I will be doing).

The Cornell program has been reformed and now it's also a 3 semester program, which allows an summer intern. The director who interviewed me told that at present, at least 50% of their students have already secured the summer intern this year, so it would not be much worse than CMU, I guess.

They even got a project training in the 3rd semester. Projects are sponsored by Wall Street companies. I remember the director mentioned Lehmen Bro. And the 3rd semester will be carried out in NY.

My two major unsatisfaction with CMU is that:

1) Location. I will not go to NY campus of CMU because I do not want to pay $100k and get remote education, and I want to have the experience of studying in an US university campus. So if I go to CMU, I will only go to Pitts. But Pitts is far away from NY.

2) The school name of CMU is not great enough, compared to Ivy. Especially in Asia.

Of course job placement after graduation will be my No. 1 consideration. I just want to know, is their career services, alumini network resourses, and program reputation really that much greater than Cornell, so that it is worth to give up Cornell, considering the 3rd semester in NY, the company sponsored projects, and the Ivy name?

I really really want to hear your comments. Thank you very much!

 

[Andy Nguyen]

First, CMU is way too rich for my blood. 100K+ for a master degree is just too much for my wallet.
People can use the future cash flow arguments, networking opportunity to justify the price but at the same time, students from other programs like Baruch, Columbia, NYU have got cushy jobs for much less upfront payment.

Cornell NYC semester is a unproven thing but it can only help. It definitely will have a bigger ring to its name when you come back to Asia. CMU has a big name in this financial engineering space but outside of it, most people will only know it as a big university somewhere in Pittsburgh. In fact, I only came to learn about it when I read about MFE programs.

You enter the field at a time of great uncertainty. As successful as they have been in the past, don't count much on the name to help you in the future. If you get in an interview, either you can answer the question or you can't. Good candidates will always get good job no matter which program they study from.

 

[alain]

What do you want us to tell you? Comments about what? I think I'm losing my patience lately. Maybe because Quantnet didn't get these posts before and now it seems everybody wants our opinion about the program. Here is what I know. Ithaca is miles away from NY as it is Pittsburgh so do the math. If you are unsatisfy with CMU just go to Cornell and be done with it.

If you are so keen about the Ivy league name because it's well seen in Asia, why do you care about the job placement after graduation? People won't care in US so the name should not matter. You are contradicting yourself on this point.

My advice is to make a decision and stick to it. Don't try to second guess yourself. You are going to live with it. What do you care what we think about it? Sorry about the rant. I didn't want to pick on you directly.

I had a conversation with somebody yesterday (somebody higher on the totem pole) about the latest posts on QN with this trait... and we were discussing that anybody that presents this type of indecision would make a horrible trader.

 

[MikeK]

What do you want us to tell you? Comments about what? I think I'm losing my patience lately. Maybe because Quantnet didn't get these posts before and now it seems everybody wants our opinion about the program.

I had a conversation with somebody yesterday (somebody higher on the totem pole) about the latest posts on QN with this trait... and we were discussing that anybody that presents this type of indecision would make a horrible trader.

I think you spoke well for a lot of us, Alain. These past few months, with everyone getting their acceptance letters to schools, every other post is "where should I go?!?!!?". In fact, I personally have been logging on less because I was fed up with it.

We're not picking on you directly, Feng. But Alain is right in that these posts are annoying. He's also correct in saying that a critical skill for trading, quant, etc positions is the ability to make a decision and live with it.

Not to mention, we're also tired of people asking about Ivy league programs simply because they are Ivy league. Or at least I am.

 

[Feng]

@ Alain & MikeK

Thank you very much. I can fully understand how annoying this kind of posts are.

Yet as an undergraduate in China with no w/e, it's really hard for me to get a vivid vision in my mind about the job market. I want hear what the people in this industry and on the street say so that I may try my best to make up a big picture.

I plan to work in NYC after my graduation, but thinking about returning to Asia after several year. Surely work experience in US would be crucial so I care the placement right after graduation. I am only wondering whether school name would also be a matter, and how big a matter when I return to Asia. I have never worked in this industry so I do not have much idea.

"People won't care in US so the name should not matter." This is exactly the things I want to hear, and this kind of information should be very helpful for me.

"make a decision and live with it" is a very good advice. Once I have made a decision, I will follow your advice.

Different programs have different strength in different aspects. How and to what extent these different aspects can help in the end is just I want to hear from people who are more knowledgeable than me.

@ Andy

You have always been very kind. Thank you all the way!

 

[Feng]

For the last two days, I have contacted some current MFE students and got some information, so I would like to share it with people here. Hope it may help.

Although the CMU director claimed in an andio interview put on their website recently that up till now 80% of their students have secured summer intern, which is even better than previous years at this time. Yet, A current student their told me that this year 80% of Asian students got interns in Asia. I remember also on GD that someone else has posted that another CMU student mentioned that among the ~20 students who haven't got intern offer yet, half of them were Chinese students. If so, I think this is really no good news at least for Chinese students.

While most CMU students I contacted either say there is no big difference between NY and pitts campus with respect to job oppos, or strongly recommended pitts. To my surprise, no one(from CMU) strongly recommends NY, although many students from other schools would tell me to choose NY between the two.

I have heard from another Chinese student from Cornell that Chinese students at Cornell are actually doing better than other groups in securing summer interns this year. Most of the interns secured so far are in large banks in NY. Although up till now maybe only around 60% students have fixed their intern(according to the Cornell director giving me the interview), I think the quality is bettern than what CMU Asian students get.

The Cornell student also told me that Cornell didn't pay much attention to marketing their students in previous years, but only from this year, they take off. Still he recognizes that CMU has stronger networks and connections than Cornell.

Also, from the information given by NYU students, 8 of the 9 Chinese students at NYU have already secured their summer interns, and all in NY. So NYU sounds really gorgeous.

My current conclusion is that, if I receive NYU, I will go(currently I am still waiting, I am going to send them an email asking for a decision). Otherwise I will go CMU pitts. Although it seems bad for Asian students this year at CMU, I believe Asian students have been given the same opportunities as US students. Anyway, CMU do have stronger networks and connections and career services, the rest is up to individuals. And as my preference for campus life, I would still choose pitts.

 

[alain]

... I believe Asian students should have been given the same opportunities as US students.

I'm sure chinese students had the same opportunities as other students. This sounds like "sour grapes". If they didn't get internships in this field it is usually becuase there was something wrong... but if you think this is a problem (that chinese students don't have the same opportunitties as others), you have a clear choice, don't come to US to study and get a job. I'm sure the asian students here will agree with me.

I do wonder if a foreign student in China would have the same opportunities as a chinese student.

 

[Feng]

I'm sure chinese students had the same opportunities as other students. This sounds like "sour grapes". If they didn't get internships in this field it is usually becuase there was something wrong... but if you think this is a problem (that chinese students don't have the same opportunitties as others), you have a clear choice, don't come to US to study and get a job. I'm sure the asian students here will agree with me.

I do wonder if a foreign student in China would have the same opportunities as a chinese student.

Oh, my god! I have realized that my English is so terrible!!!

Actually what I wanted to say is that "Chinese students were given the same opportunities, but they still didn't do very well." So there might be some problems with the students.

It is because I had no specific evidence that they were given the same oppos, so I just used a "should" to indicate that it was my guess, in case actually it's not the same, which I think is almost impossible. Maybe I just used the mindset of Chinese language to speak English. I just want to share some information I got, and I am sorry for the misleading caused.

 

[alain]

I'm glad that you caught your mistake. It means you will have to improve your English as well. Some headhunter mentioned to me once that communication skills was one of the biggest hurdles chinese students have.

 

[cesc]

Hi all,

As the deadline (Apr 15) for Cornell is coming, I really need to make a decision on these two programs. I would very much like to hear some advices from this forum.

Just a bit about my background. A final year EE undergrad from a top tier uni in Asia with a pretty good GPA and ECA records. Had almost no working experience on finance or FE.

I wish to choose a program that suits my own background. In terms of career, i wanna work in S&T, maybe trader or structurer; Market/Credit Risk might also be a good alternative for me if I could get offers from top banks. Location is not an issue for me: NY of course is the best, but HK, Singapore or Canada are also fine for me.

Here is some analysis I did for both programs, correct me if wrong:

CMU (currently placed at NYC campus):

• Positive: Under business school. Has probably the best Career Service among all FE programs. Excellent placement rate. NY campus good for networking. Good focus on programming, especially C++. Excellent curriculum structure. Good Tepper Alumni network worldwide.

• Negative: Non-Ivy League, I suppose not as reputable as Cornell among IBs in HK/Singapore/Canada. Non-FE practitioners (including big banks' HRs or hedge funds ?) probably never knew how good CMU is. [It seems that every year, the list of recruiting banks in Asia are almost the same, which gave me the feeling that "only these banks recognize CMU and it would be a lot harder to get into other banks/hedge funds". Correct me if i'm wrong]

Video conferencing teaching for NY campus students, less communication with profs/TAs. Less feeling of a campus.​

Cornell:

• Positive: Ivy League uni, share wider Cornell Alumni network worldwide. Smaller (40-50 ?) class size. teaching is all face-to-face. Last semester in NY.

• Negative: 1st year at Itacha, less chance of networking. Career Service not as helpful as CMU's (I may have big problems in securing an internship). My friend told me Cornell Alumni network makes more sense to Cornell undergrads than to 1/1.5-year master students.

The tuition fee for both programs are almost the same, so that's not an issue for me.

Currently, I'm a little bit leaning towards CMU. Since I don't have any related working experience, I believe a fantastic Career Service would be very important for me. Also, a focus in programming and C++ would probably give me a bit more confidence in the coursework (i'm from EE bg).

But I still wish to get some more advices from you guys, in case there is any mistake in my above analysis. Also i'm willing to know which one of the CMU campuses is better as for my background, Pittsburgh or NYC ? Is networking or learning some real stuff more important for MFE students ?

Thanks in advance for all your inputs.

 

[AaronPierce]

Definately CMU. It's worth the money.

 

[cesc]

@AaronPierce: Thanks for your reply. Can I ask why ? I'm a little bit worried about CMU's reputation in Asia compared to Cornell. Here, everybody knows ivy league, but not many know CMU.

 

[roni]

1) only 5 out of the 7 courses are taught in Pitts, the other 2 are taught in NY and if I'm not mistaken, they are taught by practitioners.

2) Honestly, I know many people from outside the US and non of them is familiar with CMU. However, it doesn't mean banks are not familiar with CMU. I think its a very good school.

3) I spoke with 3 current Cornell students and 1 alum and they told me that if I'm looking to enter the quant field, Cornell is not for me. I got the impression that the vast majority get trading or front-office positions.

4) I was also told that the recruiting process in Cornell is very good. Lots of companies come to Ithaca to recruit the students.

5) I also understand that there are many corporate events in Ithaca, so its good for networking

 

[Andy Nguyen]

What is your personality? Are you outgoing and like to go to social events? Are you comfortable around strangers or you would rather be in a group of people who speak your language?
CMU NYC vs Pitts is an old question. Many people pick NYU pointing to networking as #1 reason but I question whether they make the most of out if. True, the events are abundant but do you have the disciplines and times to take advantage of them?
The class at CMU is 5:30pm-9pm which happens to be during the same period of time of these events which are tailored towards working professionals hence after work. So being in NYC and never set foot outside of your classroom and apt defeats the whole "networking" point.

I know many Chinese students are very shy and never come up and introduce themselves at these events. Which is why I ask about the personality.

Are you a big city guy or someone who thrives on a campus settings?

 

[cesc]

@Andy: Yes, I agree with you. I guess I'm definitely not a networking guy but is probably someone in between those two types, that's the reason why I'm still hesitating on locations. Also, I don't think I will have tons of time to spend on events or networking, since my undergrad major seems nothing to do with FE and I probably need to learn a lot more than others.

But besides networking, is there any other distanvantages u think essential for Pitts campus ? I'm actually more worried of losing interview opportunities for internship and full-time. I know there will be those Super-days for big banks, which makes it no difference for Pitts or NYC students. What about other companies ? will I be rejected or simply lose a lot of interviews just because I'm not in NY ?

Thanks for your advice

 

[cesc]

@roni, sorry, what do you mean by "7 courses" ? (or you mean "5/7 of the courses" ?) I guess CMU offers more than 7 courses throughout 1.5 years if i'm not wrong.

I heard from one Cornell current student that not all FE students can successfully secure internship. I'm not sure if that is true. Did you hear anything about that ?

Yes, in Asia at least, Cornell is indeed a lot more reputable than CMU. That makes me hard to choose btw these two.

 

[Paul Mithouard]

You shall also ponder over whether you would relish an oportunity to stay in the US in the long term. In that case, if I were you I would go to CMU.
Otherwise, I would go to Cornell which has a worlwide recognition (even in Europe where I am from), and particularly strong curriculum (I contacted a few alumn by the time intended to go there)

 

[roni]

@cesc
In every mini semester 7 courses are offered and 2 of them are in NY.

I spoke with a dec '10 Cornell alum and he told me that all of the students except one have jobs already( from the people he knows). I was also told by a current student that some students started looking late for internships so a small number of them ended up with non paid internships... the alum didnt say anything about students with no internships.

Ask yourself what you want to be... Quant? choose CMU as the chances that you become a quant through CMU are higher.
You want to be a trader or get a front desk positions? choose Cornell as many of Cornell's grad end up in these positions.

 

[Paul Mithouard]

or choose NYU :D

 

[roni]

@Paul Mithouard
Is NYU popular in Asia? I'm not so sure about this...