COMPARE Columbia MFE vs NYU MAFN vs CMU MSCF

[basushantanu]

I have read quite a few posts on the forum regarding Columbia and NYU and CMU. And I am really confused on which one is the best.

Columbia is having problems with placements. Is it mostly because of the program being housed in IE&OR rather than a business school/ no summer internships ? Are summer internships really that important ? Because to me, one of the biggest draws of Columbia was that I could finish the program by May 2010. The other thing I like about Columbia is that it has professors like Derman and Kani. Also, their courses like Vol Modeling/Experimental Finance are more focused on the finance aspect. Doesn't NYC as a location help a lot ? What about the Columbia brand name ? Lastly, is there a lot of competition between OR/FE people for the same jobs which might be detrimental ?

CMU has a great placement record. But the courses etc. focus too much on programming (4 courses on C++ !!). Is that a good thing? Secondly, except for Shreve, how is the faculty ? Any other important positives/negatives to look for at CMU ?

Lastly, NYU, as I have heard, has a good placement record similar to CMU (presumably, a small class size helps). However, I was not very impressed with their course structure. Any thoughts on the faculty ? How is the NYU brand name in the industry ?

Any other thoughts that would help me make a decision would be great.

Thanks a ton.
- Shantanu

 

[Uncle Max]

You should try to personally contact students/alumni from all programs you are interested in and ask questions. It will make your decision much easier.

Columbia has a one calendar year program, therefore there is no physical time for internship. Graduating by May 2010?.. Fast graduation is not that important now as it was two-three years ago. Actually it might be smarter to stick longer at school this days. Big-name professors?.. I'm not sure this is always a plus. They tend to be more theoretical, while the point of a masters program is to get practical skills in a short period of time. I never took neither Derman's nor Kani's class. May be they are great. You should ask Columbia students. It will be also very kind of you if you post your findings here.

CMU more IT focused program. Is that C++ very important?.. Depends, it certainly easier get a job on IT side then on finance side at big firm. However, carreer prospects of an IT quant (aka quant developer) are lower. You want to be in a position when you are telling people in your firm who are experts in C++ what to do and when you need it done.

NYU puts more emphasis on theoretical (math) part of the financial engineering. Again, I'm not sure if it's good or bad but I personally prefer more practial approach. 1 year of study is not enough to get very theoretical, PhD programs exist for that.

 

[vkaul]

so PHd engineering people are placed in the quant developer role which is IT rather than finance right?

 

[chrisd]

Just a quick comment on NYU (as I am a student there) - I don't think the program is especially theoretical. With the exception of Stochastic Calculus, most of the courses have been pretty practical/applications focused. There is a decent amount of work that involves programming in C++, but they don't really teach C++.

 

[Uncle Max]

so PHd engineering people are placed in the quant developer role which is IT rather than finance right?

The point is that it's much easier to find a job on IT side, because on financial side more money and competition is tougher. At least it used to be like that before. Nobody really gets "placed" anywhere. Some schools are helping their students to get interviews, but what kind of job to look and accept it or not is only up to you at the end of the day.

 

[Uncle Max]

Just a quick comment on NYU (as I am a student there)

As I said it's better to get a word from students of respective schools.

Chris, do you also use Matlab and VBA? What do you use more?

 

[chrisd]

Chris, do you also use Matlab and VBA? What do you use more?

Some assignments require you to use a particular language, while others leave it up to you what to use.

I'd say its been about 1/3 C/C++, 1/3 MATLAB, 1/3 whatever you want (could be VBA). That last 1/3 depends on the assignment (ie, if there's a lot of linear algebra, makes sense to use MATLAB), and the student's taste in programming.

 

[Stefan Zota]

Some assignments require you to use a particular language, while others leave it up to you what to use.

I'd say its been about 1/3 C/C++, 1/3 MATLAB, 1/3 whatever you want (could be VBA). That last 1/3 depends on the assignment (ie, if there's a lot of linear algebra, makes sense to use MATLAB), and the student's taste in programming.

An emphasis on C++ like Baruch or CMU is fine. NYU's approach is just as good.
Any MFE program will build on existent skills. Your inclination may be computational, pure math or financial strategy. I believe the market will have positions for all such backgrounds, so it is better to focus on your strongest points.

 

[basushantanu]

Thank you for all the responses to my query.

I have worked for a structuring desk at a European bank in Asia. Consequently, what I am looking for from the program is a greater theoretical knowledge of modeling and an insight into algortihmic trading. I would also like to learn more about programming in quantitative finance but not to the extent that CMU does (as I don't want to be a pure quant developer). I am looking for a job as a derivatives quant (with more focus on the financial strategy aspect rather than the IT one) or exotics/program trader.
So, I am trying to evaluate these programs from this view as mentioned above.

Chris, what do you make of the NYU faculty and how helpful is the NYU program in getting placements? Also, what would you say is the breakup in terms of quant developers/quant strategists/program traders/structurers etc. ?

Any other comments from current students in any of the three programs I mentioned would be highly appreciated.

 

[chrisd]

Chris, what do you make of the NYU faculty and how helpful is the NYU program in getting placements? Also, what would you say is the breakup in terms of quant developers/quant strategists/program traders/structurers etc. ?

NYU has a couple of courses you can take that relate to algo top by top names, I'd also say that NYU (at least superficially) has a bit more a buy-side emphasis than the other programs I looked at... as far as faculty, I've found them to be quite good, even though most of them have day jobs.

As far as placement goes, it's hard to say - the market right now for internships is rather thin, so most people can't be too picky. I don't know if things are going any better or worse at say, Baruch or CMU...

 

[financeguy]

Columbia has started allowing students to do a summer internship and finish coursework in the following semester. So that problem has been recognized and solved. The students now have a choice as to whether they want to jump in to a full-time position, or to take a summer position, finish up their degree in the next year, and then take a full-time offer.

Also, both Derman's and Kani's courses are great and very applied. I took courses taught by both. (I'm a Columbia student, btw)

You should try to personally contact students/alumni from all programs you are interested in and ask questions. It will make your decision much easier.

Columbia has a one calendar year program, therefore there is no physical time for internship. Graduating by May 2010?.. Fast graduation is not that important now as it was two-three years ago. Actually it might be smarter to stick longer at school this days. Big-name professors?.. I'm not sure this is always a plus. They tend to be more theoretical, while the point of a masters program is to get practical skills in a short period of time. I never took neither Derman's nor Kani's class. May be they are great. You should ask Columbia students. It will be also very kind of you if you post your findings here.

CMU more IT focused program. Is that C++ very important?.. Depends, it certainly easier get a job on IT side then on finance side at big firm. However, carreer prospects of an IT quant (aka quant developer) are lower. You want to be in a position when you are telling people in your firm who are experts in C++ what to do and when you need it done.

NYU puts more emphasis on theoretical (math) part of the financial engineering. Again, I'm not sure if it's good or bad but I personally prefer more practial approach. 1 year of study is not enough to get very theoretical, PhD programs exist for that.

 

[ooff]

Hi,
First of all, thanks all for giving me advice last time when I posted here. I think you guys are really awesome.
I applied for part-time study in Mathematics of Finance in Columbia, MSCF in CMU and Financial Math in NYU. Fortunately, I got admissions from all of them. Just trying to decide which one to go. I understand there are a few posts discussing about this already. Just would like to throw in my background and listen from you based on it.
I have a master in applied math, but not major in stats. And I've been doing quant developer for ~4.5 years with an algo trading team. I would like to move more towards trading and business side after the study.
I've talked with different people already and did some my own homework and found the following.
CMU:
good:
* in business school.
* broad coverage
* seems it's better recognized than NYU?
bad:
* 4 programming courses.
* not much exposure to algo trading and optimization theory
* too expensive
* curriculum is not flexible (i.e. must take 2 and only 2 courses in each mini-semester)
NYU:
good:
* curriculum is flexible (can take at own pace)
* cheaper than CMU
* more exposures to algo trading and optimization theory
bad:
* not in business school
* seems it has smaller graduate base and less recognized than CMU?
* quite heavy math (which may be good).
Like I said, I'm thinking about moving more towards trading/business side. This seems justifies CMU.
Given my experience in algo trading, I don't want to throw it away. This seems justifies NYU.
I'm kind of more inclined to NYU partly due to its cheaper tuition fee since I have to pay out of my own pocket. Is it possible to get a desk strats position after studying NYU and then move to a trading position later? Or, you guys think taking CMU directly will be worth of it?
Thanks again for your inputs.

 

[alain]

I have only one question since it seems you are already in Finance. How a MFE degree will facilitate your move to trading/business side? I would've thought that in 4 and a half year you would've created good connection with your peers and managers such that a move like the one you want to make, could've worked out without going through school.

 

[MSFHQ]

If you have so much experience on the quant side already how come you are not looking at a top MBA program? Seems like a MFE would be overkill.

I agree with Alain. You should be working your network right now to make the transition without going back to school.

 

[Connor]

I too would have thought an MBA would be more appropriate if any masters was needed.

 

[AlexandreH]

"not much exposure to algo trading and optimization theory"?
Is that correct about CMU?
Does anyone have some information about this?

 

[Jae]

Hi all,

I am currently working at a NY BB as a first yr sales and trading analyst. I m going to take a PT master, finish ASAP (within 1.5 yrs) and go back to Asia (at the time I finish my analyst program. I have 2 questions.

1. Of these 3 schools' FE or master programs, how would Asian BB trading desks rank them?

2. For someone who has been in the industry but doesn't have a good undergrad school name or advanced degree (master, MBA, phd), which program would be the best fit for me? (minimum time, not many work but still good reputation at Asia)

Many Thanks!

 

[Andy Nguyen]

1) How are you going to finish a PT program in 1.5 years?
2) Which Columbia program do you refer to? Columbia MFE is FT only
3) NYU MathFin has a PT program but its career services are for FT students. Most of its graduates end up in NYC.

Of the three, I would think CMU may be your best fit (good alumni base in Asia, highly organized career services) but at the same time, I don't think you are cut out for this line of work with that mind set (there isn't any "minimum time, not many work" program). And you are vastly underestimating the amount of work you need to put in. Many PT students drop out of these programs after the first semester because they couldn't keep up.

Keep your job, finish your analyst rotation and then try to move to your bank's Asia office.

 

[Jae]

Thanks for the answer! I have a question: Can I finish IEOR in 1 year? Does the department allow PT to do so? Any suggestion about choosing MSOR to fulfill my goal? (no need for knowledge, just a master degree with good reputation)

 

[Yike Lu]

You realize that the full time programs themselves are 1-1.5 years long? And that the part time programs are merely programs in which you can take 2 classes each semester instead of the full 4? And therefore the questions you ask about finishing in 1/1.5 years as a part time student are basically nonsensical?