Question: Can I Quant Before I Learn?

[Eric JM]

Hello, I am a new member -- so hello, everbody!

I am a rising 4th year at a public school in Virginia (hint, hint ) and I would like to inquire about gaining access to a quant related field simply with a bachelors degree. I am majoring in economics and have a math minor, but I have had to take a lot of maths to get that minor -- it would probably be a math major anywhere else.

My math skills/classes: Econometrics, ODE, honors calculus 3 (we studied literally everything you could image, including PDEs), basic real analysis, stochastic processes, derivative pricing math, linear algebra, and others that may not apply

My CS skills/class: C++ (I am not an expert, but have a working knowledge -- I would call myself proficient), Python (same with C++ -- I am not an expert, but defeinitely proficient). I have also worked with MATLAB, but very little VBA.

Finance/business skills: I know this is a bit less relevant, but I have taken a lot of finance/economics class, including the behavioral finance, theory of financial markets, and econometrics.

It seems that my skills line up with the skillset needed to enter into the industry, but I will only have a bachelor's degree. Would it be possible to enter into a quant related feild to get some training before I enter into a MFE program?

I would like to get out and work before I go to any graduate program for a variety of reasons, but mainly to make sure financial engineering is the right feild for me. My school has many top banks and boutique banks (such as D.E. Shaw) that recruit here and I think I may have a fighting chance to at least get past the first interview. So, what do you guys think? Can it happen?

Thanks guys! Sorry if this question has been answered elsewhere...I did search for it.

 

[Andy Nguyen]

Go for it. You got nothing to lose.
If you can get an entry job with your undergrad, that would be ideal. Having concrete idea and making educated choice before going to graduate school would save you ton of time and money.

 

[Uncle Max]

You will have to decided which area you want to work first: risk management, fixed income, equities etc... Then prepare yourself for the interviews. Many places will ask you to derive Black Scholes formula, solve stochastic integrals etc. Those are considered basics and most likely you didn't cover them during your undergrad study.

Also getting interviews will be not that simple. Especially in this environment. Usually pure Quants are people PhDs in sciences. You will be looking more at Quant Developer positions which is implementing ideas of pure Quants using C++ or Java.

 

[bluechimp]

Hi Eric,

Seems like you've really prepared for quantitative finance as a career -- that's quite a packed schedule! At any rate, I went to a private university in the Northeast (hint hint! I guess you'd still have a hard time figuring out which one.. just kidding, can't help it), and from my prior experience, I have seen my friends getting positions at DE Shaw or Strategy Groups at bulge-bracket banks. So, to answer the question of 'possibility': yes, it can be done.

Now, let me give a little bit more color on these fantastic individuals: they were more than just people that took the right courses and did well on them -- they obliterated the curves in classes they took, and it was rather obvious their minds live on a different plane of existence. You know, the people that make insightful comments every time they open their mouths. Among my friends: one almost became a Putnam Fellow, and another one sold a web application that was enough to fund his entire college education -- both were Phi Beta Kappa. (Actually DE Shaw made a point to offer an interview to all PBKs in my school; of course, most never made it through the first round. I didn't.)

In other words, it wasn't solely the rigor of classes you've taken that will determine if you'll get that coveted quant job out of bachelors.. You'd really need to prove that you're an exceptionally smart candidate. This will be done through multiple rounds of interviews, consisting of crazy brainteasers and tough questions by ridiculously smart people (who likes to show off that they're smart!) I hope I don't come off as presumptuous about your qualifications or anything, since I am sure you've proven yourself largely through the stuff you've taken over the years.

My point is: it's tough to tell if the courses prepared you enough for the jobs. Assume that they are not enough.. then there's still the chance they'd hire you if they think you're smart enough to catch up on the fly (proven via interview). Now, assume that the courses are indeed enough.. they'd still want to grill you through the interview to make sure you're not just good on paper

Either way, you'd still need to go through the interview, which is really opaque and not many of us have had experience with. (Don't know if some more senior QNs have comment on this). Seems like the optimal strategy is to just apply, prepare, and hope for the best. You'll know if you're made for it when you have the offer :D

 

[Eric JM]

I am sensing that I will be in competition with those folks who have MFEs. I was under the impression that many banks hire "analysts" and other entry level employees because they are cheaper. Once these entry-level employees are trained, then they become as valuable as a MFE graduate, but not until then. Perhaps this assumption was trigger happy.

My GPA is solid (~3.6) considering the fact I worked fulltime through most of my academics -- I just recently stopped, but I do not have enough money for the necessities, so I am going to start back up again. I am glad the summer is coming so that I can save! Considering these factors, I probably will not be the top 4% of the 3rd year class or top 14% of the 4th year class, which is needed to be admitted into Phi Beta Kappa. I hope banks will consider this factor. As a matter of fact, I have had some very colorful jobs in my career, but nothing quantitative. More along the lines of mentoring youths who are on the wrong track (gang activity, etc).

Anyway! I guess I need to work on brightening up my resume so that I can stand out in the midst of the geniuses at my school. Not to say that I am not smart, but on paper I may not be as competitive compared to those scholars who did not have to work and had time for the most elite extra-curriculars. I am on a team of roughly 20 who manage a 500 thousand dollar portfolio at our school, which is great fun!

When talking to many of my peers, I get the sense that the finance folks cannot program and the programming folks cannot math! Obviously, this is a generalization that has its exceptions, but for the most part this generalization is very applicable.

Thanks for the comments so far, guys!

 

[Andy Nguyen]

Eric,
Reading your post, I have a feeling that everything you said is relevant to the MBA, investment banking world. For example, the part of hiring undergrad and training them as "analyst" is traditional of how IB recruits from top universities.
My limited data set has shown that "quantitative analyst" is quite different from what you mentioned. Majority has at least a master degree, and MFE is a popular choice the past few years. Exception to the rule occurs.
If you can show that your skill set is above par of your class then by all means, take advantage of the hiring opportunities you have at your school.
At the minimum, you can take any interview you get as a way to learn what skills the market needs and how to position yourself for some good job. Whether or not you get an offer, it's a win-win situation.